The following’s a transcript of our monthly podcast, The Pension Confident Podcast. Listen to episode 13, watch on YouTube, or scroll on to read the conversation.
PHILIPPA: Welcome to Series Two of The Pension Confident Podcast with me, Philippa Lamb. We’re kicking off the new year by looking at financial personalities. Are you a saver or a spender?
Now, according to financial website, Investopedia, the five common financial personalities are investors, savers, big spenders, debtors and shoppers. Now, you might identify with one or two of those, but what does that mean for your finances? And is it possible to train ourselves to manage our money better? We’ve got three guests with us today to discuss that. Personal Finance Expert and Founder of Mr MoneyJar. Timi Merriman-Johnson’s here. Hi Timi.
TIMI: : Hiya.
PHILIPPA: Certified Money Coach, Mentor and Founder of The Money Whisperer, Emma Maslin, she’s back for her second appearance on the podcast. Hi Emma.
EMMA: Thanks for having me.
PHILIPPA: And lastly, PensionBee’s own Head of Content, Brooke Day, a self-confessed shopper. Hi Brooke.
BROOKE: Hi.
PHILIPPA: Now look, before we start, the usual disclaimer: Please do remember anything discussed on this podcast shouldn’t be regarded as financial advice and when investing your capital is at risk.
WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENT MONEY PERSONALITIES?
PHILIPPA: Now, Brooke, I don’t want to put you on the spot, but tell us a bit more about this shopping habit of yours.
BROOKE: Yeah, so when I was thinking about which personality I am, I definitely identify with the shopper. If I think back to my childhood, the shopping instinct in me has always been there. My brother would save for the big things and I’d get my money and blow it instantly. Before my parents had even handed me the £10 pocket money, I’d already assigned it and more. I was already thinking about the next lot of money. So yeah, I love shopping. There’s a real emotional need for me from that. When I think about what I shop for, it’s always clothes related. So I can really focus on it. I think it’s partly vanity, partly the buzz that it gives me, but I think it’s also definitely formed from my parents - they’re a split of the two personalities. So, my Mum’s a big saver and my Dad’s a big shopper, and I’m definitely a mix of the two.
PHILIPPA: But you always got a nice warm feeling?
BROOKE: Yeah. I love it. Especially online shopping and the double dopamine hit that you get from initial purchase and then when it arrives. But, I’ve tried to be better with myself. If I don’t wear it within two weeks, I was never really interested in it in the first place and it has to go back.
PHILIPPA: Yeah, that’s probably a good rule. But I mean, Emma, there’s more to this, isn’t there? Because like with so many things in life, when it comes to money, we’re not always the best judge of ourselves. Brooke seems to have a pretty good handle on who she is, but not all of us do, do we?
EMMA: No. But I think most people identify with those key categories of personality. Most people will say to me, ‘I’m a spender’ or ‘I’m a saver’. But actually in reality, we have a real mix of these traits of personality and they can be quite situation dependent. So we’ll typically have a dominant personality trait. I personally am a saver and an investor, but there are times, situation dependent, when I can be a spender. So, I think it’s really important to recognise that we aren’t defined by one personality trait. It’s really a matrix rather than a spectrum.
PHILIPPA: Yeah. That’s the nub of this, isn’t it? Because it sounds obvious, financial personality, but as you say, it’s much more nuanced, isn’t it?
EMMA: Yeah, totally.
PHILIPPA: So Timi, given your website’s all about financial education, I’m guessing you know what your natural tendencies are when it comes to money.
TIMI: Yes. Organised chaos.
PHILIPPA: How does that manifest?
TIMI: Well, I read the Investopedia article and I identified with ‘investor’ and ‘big spender’. I like to set money aside for the future, but I’m also willing to take risks to multiply my money as well. I actually took the liberty of doing Emma’s Money Whisperer quiz as well and I came up as the Maverick, and it was the exact same thing. I think it’s important to note that when it comes to personality types, you’re not just one thing. You’ll have dominant personality types, but also, you’ll grow and evolve over the course of your life. I love this time of year because I do my annual Myers-Briggs personality test. I’ve always been an ‘INTJ’, so that’s the introverted personality type. But actually, I’ve found over the last three years that I’m shifting more towards the ‘E’, which is extroverted. This is a result of all the work I’ve had to do for Mr MoneyJar, speaking on shows like this.
UNDERSTANDING YOUR OWN FINANCIAL PERSONALITY
PHILIPPA: Isn’t that interesting? So you’re shifting. Actually, I was going to ask Emma this. When we talk about our financial personality, is it just an extension of our overarching personality or is this something else?
EMMA: It is, because if you think about the people that you know who are organised, who turn up on time, they do tend to be quite good with their money. They can be good planners. That means that they’ll think about the future as well as their here and now. The people that are a bit more chaotic, they can end up in debt because they are the ‘head in the sand’ type people. They don’t necessarily open the post. They’re the people that might ignore downloading the banking app and having that regular connection with what’s going on in their bank account. So yes, there’s definitely a broader piece around what your personality looks like and how it manifests in your relationship with money.
PHILIPPA: So if we get down to specifics, if we talk about a spender, how’s that different to being a shopper?
EMMA: So you get the big spenders who are extrinsically motivated. So, I think of those as status driven people. When they spend money, they’re really looking for external validation from others. So, their bank balance might not actually reflect the stuff that they’re buying. These are the people that might have the flashy cars, put the big holidays on Instagram, but you don’t really know what’s behind the scenes in terms of how they’ve paid for that. Then you get the big spenders who might be naturally inclined to look after other people over and above themselves. The parents that are putting kids through private school whilst sacrificing their own pensions, for example.
A shopper might be somebody who’s looking for bargains. They’re not necessarily spending big, but shopping gives them something. Where I was saying about the extrinsic validation: for a shopper, it’s much more about that dopamine hit that Brooke was talking about. With dopamine, we’re looking for a reward. It’s the chemical in our brain that says, ‘I want the reward and when I get that, I feel something’. It’s really addictive. It’s the act of shopping and the behaviour that’s important for the shopper. For the big spender, it’s much more about the others around them, how they feel about the external.
PHILIPPA: It’s subtle, isn’t it? Because you’re talking about the validation or the hit you get from shopping. I have to admit, I get that even from things like online grocery shopping. It doesn’t have to be some fabulous, designer piece of clothing. Now that I think about it, I can’t quite define what it is, the satisfaction of doing it? The being organised?
EMMA: That’s dopamine. We get it from lots of different places, but it’s that reward that comes and as Brooke hinted - with online shopping, there’s a lot of research that’s coming out saying that it’s giving us bigger hits of dopamine than real life shopping because we get it twice. You get it when you make the purchase, but then when the shopping arrives, you get it again. So, for a lot of people that creates even more of this addiction and actually, a lot of the work I do with people tends to be at the ends of the spectrum of a lot of these personality types, where we’re leaning too heavily on one particular trait of personality and it becomes a little bit disordered in terms of our behaviours.
TIMI: So I’d never thought of it in terms of a double dopamine hit. I think I get a triple one. The first dopamine hit I get is actually ‘adding to basket’. So, the pattern interruptor I’ve developed for myself is what I call the ‘digital window shop’. If I know I don’t want to spend money, I’ll sometimes go onto a website, browse as if I’m gonna buy, put it into my basket and then just not buy it. That’s sometimes enough for me to get my dopamine hit, but not have the effect on my bank account. I think we’ve all done this, at least I have, back in the day with the Argos catalogue. You’d leaf through it with your biro and you’d circle all the things your parents were never going to buy you!
PHILIPPA: Debtors Emma. How does it manifest?
EMMA: It can be education that’s the root cause of people getting into debt. It can be situational, for example a loss of job, that means people may find themselves in a situation where they’re having to rely on credit. But there can also be a piece around childhood and what causes this behaviour where we bury our head in the sand. A really good example with children is where we might say, ‘it’s rude to talk about money, don’t ask that person how much they earn’. So as a child, you internalise, ‘Hmm, money isn’t something to be talked about’. That’s a reasonable interpretation for a child at that point that they were told that. But if that becomes the script that dominates how they approach money throughout their life, that’s maladaptive as an adult. And yet for a lot of people, those scripts do continue.
PHILIPPA: Thinking about pros and cons of some of these categories. I mean, obviously some of them look better than others, but if we take investors, is there a downside to that? This sounds like a universally good thing.
EMMA: There are pros and cons. An investor, probably for most people, would be the aspiration. But, there are some people who are thinking too much about the future at the expense of spontaneity and being able to enjoy the moment. A lot of the work that I do’s emotional. What’s the emotion that’s driving that behaviour of saving for the future? Is it fear? What are you scared of? Are you scared of running out of money when you’re older? Or maybe you’ve seen older parents or grandparents who’ve struggled with care in later life. Are you fearful of that for yourself?
PHILIPPA: Too risk averse?
EMMA: No. Because if you’re investing for the future, I’m really saying, are you balancing and making sure that you’re living enough in the moment, that you’re enjoying life now? We don’t want to just be thinking of the future. We don’t want to just be thinking of the here and now.
TIMI: Well the future’s entirely unknown and I think that 2020 showed us that. Any plans that we had in January 2020 - we had to get rid of them by March, April that year.
PHILIPPA: Yeah. But it’s that insurance against the future. The saving and investing, just making sure there’s always a little bit of a safety net.
EMMA: Again, most people think it would be great to be a saver. But saving and not investing isn’t a great place to be in because if you’re saving money, you’re doing a good thing, but actually if you’re too risk averse and you’re not thinking about putting money into investment vehicles, then you’re at the mercy of inflation. So, we just need to taper and make sure that there’s nuance here because it’s really important to be risk aware. Even the saver isn’t necessarily a good trait to have if you lean too heavily into it without looking at some of the other things like spending, saving and investing.
BROOKE: I think that’s a really good point about being a saver. I think I’m more a saver than an investor at this point, but I think I want to work towards being more of an investor. When I was younger, I was taught to save money and that was having a savings account. You don’t really make much money on it. I didn’t really know about any other kind of products. So, I had savings products, but I didn’t have investment products. And now, by virtue of the job that I do and the industry that I work in, I’m learning more that by leaving my money in my current account or in a really low interest savings account isn’t going to get me anywhere. So, I need to make it work harder. I think that’s the biggest adjustment. It would be interesting if we had this chat in a year or two years’ time to see what my personality was.
PHILIPPA: This huge uplift in inflation has made a lot of people understand that, maybe for the first time. Particularly really - younger people, who’ve just never seen that before. But now, you leave your money in a bank account when they’re not giving you any interest, you might as well just throw it away. Everything we’ve talked about so far does rest on us understanding who we are. Emma, how do we do it?
EMMA: There are various different personality tests out there. I use a couple in the work that I do. A really good one’s Money Habitudes. I don’t know if any of you have ever taken the money Habitudes test? It comes as a pack of cards so you can do it in real life with your partner or your kids. There’s various online tests as well. They ask you questions like, ‘if you were at a meal with friends, would you feel uncomfortable when the discussion of the bill comes up?’ How does everyone feel about that? Does it bring up an emotion in you or do you just flick kick credit card in?
PHILIPPA: It depends who you’re with, doesn’t it?
EMMA: Does it?
BROOKE: It’s funny because I feel like my instinct is always ‘just split it’ and actually, I find it annoys me. It probably makes me think I don’t wanna go for dinner with someone if they say, ‘I only had the starter’. But then actually you think, ‘fair enough, good for you’. I don’t know, maybe they’re a debtor and they’re trying to get out of that.
PHILIPPA: It’s the non-drinkers that I always feel sorry for. If you’re not drinking alcohol, that’s half the bill, isn’t it? Most of the time. Having said that, I’m a drinker, but moving along.
EMMA: But these types of conversations come out of taking these personality tests. I very much think that there’s so much shame around money. Quite often because we see how other people are doing things and we feel that we should. There’s so much ‘should’ in the personal finance space. ‘You should do this, you should do that, I should be like that person’. No, you are you, you’re navigating life through your lens and your lens is a product of your education, your experiences when you were young. Knowing that’s so important because it really helps you lift a lot of that shame. Say, ‘if I can understand who I am, I can best navigate my circumstances in a way that feels good to me’. And a lot of the work I do is actually around the nervous system because when we feel outta whack, when we’re pushed outside of our window of tolerance, we might go into fight or flight mode.
Actually, we become somebody whose brain is operating from our subconscious. It’s not the rational part of our brain, which can say, ‘I should save’, ‘a pension’s a good product’, ‘my budget is my saviour’. All of that goes out the window when we’re operating from our animal instincts. What drives the animal instincts is those scripts that were developed when we were young to the extent that they’re maladaptive, to the extent that they’re saying something like, ‘money is secretive’ or ‘only greedy people can be rich’. If you have that as your loop that’s running in your brain, you’re not going to become an investor. Actually, we need to learn how to regulate our nervous systems, which is really difficult in modern day life, so that we can make practical decisions from a rational standpoint rather than being emotionally driven.
TIMI: The way that I’ve been able to get over the nervous system point’s automation. When it comes to saving, just set up that standing order to your separate savings account and let it run.
PHILIPPA: It’s not a decision, it just happens?
TIMI: It just happens using budgeting software which automatically categorises your spending. You just need to review and check it. I do that every week. I like relying on tools and things outside of me, systems that can help me make good decisions.
BROOKE: Yeah. It’s really complicated. We’ve discussed this so many times. The government puts things in place that we don’t understand, so sometimes it’s easier to just tune out of the conversation. But I think you’re right about using automation, there’s so many tools out there now. Or why not try talking to your friends to try and get a better understanding. Knowing whether you should have a LISA or put your money in a pension, it’s hard. Sometimes there’s that product overwhelm. You’re like, ‘oh there’s so many things, should ever Cash ISA, should I have a Help to Buy ISA?’ Yeah, it’s a lot.
CAN YOU ADAPT YOUR FINANCIAL PERSONALITY FOR THE BETTER?
PHILIPPA: Just recapping a moment. So we’re saying the key thing is that you can be a mixture of different personalities when it comes to your finances. You’re an individual and there’s no point pretending there’s a quick fix that’s going to work for everyone. Would that be fair to say? It strikes me that it’s a bit like dieting. It’s a bit like losing weight, isn’t it? You have to find the thing that works for you and not the thing that just works for you for three months, six months - lasting change. So, I want to drill down a bit more into that. Let’s work our way through the categories and think about fixes for them. So that we actually come up with some useful steps and let’s kick off with shoppers because we understand now and we talked a lot about the impulse, and where it comes from, and why it’s so lovely. How it manifests itself - whether it’s designer clothing or in my case: groceries. So Emma, thinking about shoppers, I know you’ve got a point about the emotional value you’re able to place on saving money for the future instead, haven’t you?
EMMA: Yes, but actually, I’m going to give you another tip around shoppers and I’ll come back to that one. With shopping, my biggest tip to people who want that hit is to try and flip it and understand what it is that they’re trying to get in that moment. I’ll use myself as an example. When you’re in the moment, the question to ask yourself is, ‘what is it that I need right now?’ When you delve into that, for a lot of people it might be, ‘I’m sitting on the sofa on a Friday night’, using myself as an example - my husband watches a lot of football, I’m not interested in football. I’ll flick onto Instagram - loads of adverts, right? If I ask myself the question, ‘what is it I really need right now?’ It’s actually connection. Because I’m feeling a bit lonely or bored, right? Asking that question is so valuable because actually I can say, if it’s connection I need, I can pick up the phone to a friend, have a conversation and that’ll give me that emotional hit that I need so that I don’t feel lonely anymore. I don’t need to shop because that isn’t going to give me what I actually need at this moment. Asking yourself that question is so, so valuable. For some people it might be, ‘I need physical connection with somebody’ and that might be, ‘let’s go out for a walk’. It might be, ‘I need exercise’, whatever it is. But there will be a need that you’re fulfilling through shopping, that shopping actually isn’t going to give you the satisfaction. So, asking that question is so, so valuable.
PHILIPPA: Interesting. A sticking plaster, in other words, for the stuff you’re not getting.
TIMI: I think for me, I definitely see myself in the shopper archetype, but maybe more so in the past. I try to give myself permission to shop but I try to buy things that will last.
PHILIPPA: So what sort of things would you buy?
TIMI: Things that last are high quality clothing and items, things that improve your health, memories and skills. These are things which when you part with your money, will stay with you potentially forever. And so I’ll use the ‘cost per use’ metric. So actually, a £200 pair of headphones that you use every single day and helps you to focus when you’re in the library and when you’re working might be a better buy for you than 10 cheap pairs over a longer time period that break after six months. I use cost per use a lot. When I buy stuff, it’s not that buying stuff is bad, it’s just that if it lasts me, then I know I’m making a good investment in that item.
BROOKE: There’s something in that actually, about experiences and holidays, because I really noticed my shopping habits changed the most post COVID. I didn’t want physical things anymore. I wanted to go on holiday. I wanted experiences with my friends. Those were the things I had missed the most. Then suddenly, I wanted to spend my money on those things and now I’m like, ‘okay, I need to find a middle ground’. I think before, I just kept spending without thinking because I just wanted to do all those things we weren’t allowed to do. And now I’m like, ‘okay, life is a bit normal’. We can’t just accelerate and spend at the same rate anymore.
TIMI: I think memories are massively underrated. You could buy a top and wear it at one event, and just never, ever wear it again. But if you go on a trip with some friends, even if it’s not particularly lavish, that’s something that later on in your life, you could also be laughing about. That time when your mate did something. So, I think they’re well worth investing in.
EMMA: I just want to add something on with this. Values are so important here as well because each of you have just given me an insight into what your values are. It’s something I wish we taught children before they left school because when you know your values, you can live a much more fulfilled life. Where people are just shopping for the sake of it, scattergun, with the things that a year down the track they’ll be like, ‘well what did that give me?’ It didn’t give me anything apart from satisfaction in the moment. If you spend money, value aligned, it focuses where you direct your money to but it also gives you so much more intrinsic satisfaction. I wouldn’t tell anybody who has health as a high value not to spend on a gym membership or a personal trainer because that, for them, is so important to who they are. But when you know that, it becomes really easy to direct your money to the things that are important and actually you can cut out spending on the things that don’t give you that satisfaction.
PHILIPPA: I guess you can bring your wider values into your habits can’t you? If you think about things like societal values, for example, we want to be greener, fashion - the disposability, the throwaway culture, all that stuff. If you attach that to your shopping habit, it gives you a bit of a pinch doesn’t it? If you’re buying too much stuff that you’re only gonna use once. It’s interesting. Can we just go back to that emotional value point? Because I thought that it was interesting that you talked about saving money for kids, education, dream homes, that whole thing of throwing forward to stuff you really value, rather than spending right now.
EMMA: Big picture planning’s really important for everybody. Some of these personality types - the big spenders, the shoppers, it’s very here and now, their focus. Being able to say, ‘what is it that when I’m in my sixties, seventies, eighties, I can look back on life and say I had a meaningful life, I lived life in accordance with my values, I got out of life what I wanted to’.
TIMI: That I was happy.
EMMA: Yeah. I was happy, but also maybe those around me were happy. I did the best for my children. Being able to think about that now so that you can put in place the steps to make sure you can have that conversation with yourself when you’re older is really important. We aren’t taught to do that. We don’t naturally do it, but it’s a really, really valuable exercise because again, it can make you see that you’re not going to get to that place down the track unless you take action now.
PHILIPPA: And the price of not doing it is regret and no one wants that.
BROOKE: It’s funny because we were talking outside before we started recording and I was saying that in my early twenties, I always kept talking about wanting to buy a house in London, I really wanted to live in London. But it felt like this pie in the sky dream and I was like, ‘oh I’m single, I’m never going to do that’. I was just sort of kicking the can and the responsibility down the line. When I meet someone, that’s when I’ll take this goal seriously and I’ll start saving. And I remember just one day having a word with myself being like, ‘this is ridiculous. Why am I pinning this moment that I want on waiting for somebody else or something to happen that may or may never happen’? Then I went and opened a Help to Buy ISA and I started to take savings seriously. I had this end goal in mind that I was going to achieve and knowing what I was saving for, and that I was the one responsible for that really empowered me to make it happen. But I think it was the first moment that I’d really thought, what do I actually want? I’m putting this money in an account, it’s arbitrary. I’m going on holidays with my friends and it’s all really fun, but I’m not really speaking about the bigger things or if I’m thinking about the future, I’m thinking about, well I’ll do that once I get inheritance money or once I meet someone and we halve everything. Then I realised that I wasn’t really taking accountability for my own money.
TIMI: Thank you for sharing that.
PHILIPPA: I think that’s very encouraging. Because as you say, it’s about you isn’t it? Not just waiting for someone else to make your life happen. And then, if someone comes along, great. That’s a bonus, isn’t it?
BROOKE: I think it’s easy to blame society. I’m not discounting that, but I think once I realised I was the one in charge of making these things happen, it gave me a better sense of agency, but also I was just really proud of my achievements. So now I’m in this one bedroom flat that I’m like, ‘oh, all of this is mine and I made it happen’. And there’s no better feeling than that. So then, when my friends and family come over, they see this was the thing that I wasn’t coming to dinners for or when I was saying no, so that now we can sit here and have a tea together. Now, I’ve got to think about what the next thing is that I want to save for.
EMMA: Yeah, you do!
BROOKE: Because now I feel I’m at a bit of a loss. What am I saving for? I think I’ve realised what works for me and that’s when I know what it’s for, then I can really put a lot of effort into saving for it.
EMMA: You make another really good point. Having financial goals helps us to lean into that trait of the saver. If we don’t have goals, if we don’t have a plan, it’s very easy to fritter.
TIMI: I don’t do it daily at all, but the thing that I try to do every day, which I find helps me to get a bit closer to who I am and what I’m living for, is journaling. So just judgement free, writing a letter to myself, just my thoughts, my feelings or whatever. Every day. I think it helps you to answer some of those questions in terms of, what are my values? What’s important to me? What am I saving for? So I know through years of journaling, I’ve been doing it since 2016, 2017, that actually, family’s very important to me. I’d love to be in a position financially, I’m the oldest of three brothers, where I can look after both of my brothers. If it’s Christmas or their birthdays, I can buy them stuff and I can look after my mum. That’s the first, almost circle, that I want to take care of. They say if you want to change the world, you need to start with the world around you and that’s the world that’s around me. There’s just so many inputs all the time in life with other people’s opinions, new social media and stuff. So I think that if you can take time to do things like journaling, meditation, time which is just you by yourself without all of these inputs in, it puts you at a tremendous advantage versus other people. Because you’re cutting out the noise.
PHILIPPA: Thinking about what you want your life to be. Rather than just being carried along in this tide that we’re all in from the day we’re born.
EMMA: I don’t know if you’re aware Timi, but actually those two things that you’ve mentioned: journaling and meditation are really good for your nervous system. I know I’ve already mentioned the nervous system. The train’s late, or it’s raining and you’re wet to turn up to a meeting, or your boss tells you off, or the children have ripped their new school coat. All these things add up and they fill our cup and suddenly we’re overwhelmed. I think for so many of us, especially with the last three years that we’ve had, that cup’s so full that it’s creating a normalised level where we’re just not making the right decisions. So collectively, we do need to calm, bring calm to ourselves.
PHILIPPA: We’re moving into life coaching. I’m not sure that’s a bad thing actually because I’ve often thought this, that when we talk about money in the society we’re in, it’s something on the edge of our lives. And actually, it does stem from everything else going on. What you’ve talked about Emma, resilience, that sense of feeling that we’re strong enough to deal with whatever’s coming so that we can take stock, and plan and pursue our goals. Whatever it takes for you to build that resilience - for me, it’s the gym four or five times a week. It keeps me sane and rational. So whatever it is, that’s not a bad starting point, is it?
EMMA: Well, I’m a Financial Coach, but I always say to people, this isn’t about money! It’s about your wider life. Money’s just a tool for us to live our lives. Whatever else is going on in your life is so, so important. And if you’ve got out of kilter in one area - relationships, or career, or whatever, it’ll have an impact on your financial life. Money’s a manifestation of whatever else is going on in your life.
PHILIPPA: It is, isn’t it? And interestingly, next month we’re going to be talking about how your relationship status, whatever relationships you’re in, affect your money. Because as you say, it’s absolutely vital. But look, I need to wrap this up. Thank you everyone for being here. It’s just been great.
EMMA: Thank you.
BROOKE: Thank you.
TIMI: Thank you.
PHILIPPA: If you’d like to find out more about everything we’ve talked about, check out the show notes. We’ve shared lots of helpful links and resources in there for you.
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Risk warning
As always with investments, your capital is at risk. The value of your investment can go down as well as up, and you may get back less than you invest. This information should not be regarded as financial advice.
